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Source:  http://concernedbystander.tumblr.com/post/67830341655/i-dont-know-if-youll-read-this-but-again-im-the

Anonymous asked:

I don't know if you'll read this, but again, I'm the anon who asked about MayMay and I am so so sorry I brought this on you. This might barely need saying, but since MayMay's saying they want you to kill yourself...I don't want you to kill yourself, and I can't be the only one. You've influenced how I think about sex so much, and so much for the better. Because of that you've helped me not hurt myself and others with the sex I have. You're awesome and your life has made the world a better place.

pervocracy answered:

Oh no, it’s okay.  I’m fine and I think a lot of interesting discussion came out of the question, plus maybe some awareness for people who’d been promoting the “predator alert tools.”

(Even without considering their creator, the tools aren’t very good. They mark people as “predators” on OkCupid for things like answering “yes” to “intoxication can be an excuse for acting stupid.”  I mean, okay, that can be an abuse rationalization, but it can also be a “wearing a traffic cone on your head” rationalization.  And at least that’s objective; the FetLife one is based on this database, which has as many jokes and grudges as actual abuse reports, and even has some people listed as revenge for reporting abuse.

So even the “you may not like the person who made them, but you need to promote these tools or you love abuse” argument doesn’t hold much water with me.)

And hey, you don’t need to apologize for MayMay’s behavior. It’s not like asking me what I think of a person is the same as making that person attack me.

And thanks. :)

MayMay, by asking people to “kill themselves” is triggering innocent people who might even be his allies.  He should stop saying this.  If someone dies because he says this, the blood is on his hands, and the honorable thing would be for him to kill himself, too.  After all, fair is fair.  The open source community can pick up the work he’s doing, and can do it without the triggering ‘kill yourself’ vitriol.  

maymay:

pervocracy:

Oh no, it’s okay.  I’m fine and I think a lot of interesting discussion came out of the question, plus maybe some awareness for people who’d been promoting the “predator alert tools.”

(Even without considering their creator, the tools aren’t very good. They mark people as “predators” on OkCupid for things like answering “yes” to “intoxication can be an excuse for acting stupid.”  I mean, okay, that can be an abuse rationalization, but it can also be a “wearing a traffic cone on your head” rationalization.  And at least that’s objective; the FetLife one is based on this database, which has as many jokes and grudges as actual abuse reports, and even has some people listed as revenge for reporting abuse.

So even the “you may not like the person who made them, but you need to promote these tools or you love abuse” argument doesn’t hold much water with me.)

And hey, you don’t need to apologize for MayMay’s behavior. It’s not like asking me what I think of a person is the same as making that person attack me.

And thanks. :)

It’s unfortunate you’re still alive, Cliff, and it’s even more unfortunate you’re still encouraging the same stupid derails about the Predator Alert Tools that we’ve addressed numerous times, in numerous places, in numerous different ways, without ever acknowledging that we’ve done so. If you actually had any desire to educate yourself, you could read the rest of this post. But since you’ve shown time and again that you care way more about your own social standing, I really do hope you kill yourself, and I’ll write the rest of this post out mostly for other readers who have a shred of integrity and are actually interested in understanding why your reasons for saying “the tools aren’t very good” are at best extremely short-sighted.

First, (obviously?) none of the Predator Alert Tools can tell you who is or is not a predator—that’s not a computer’s job, it’s a specific human’s job. More specifically, it’s everyone’s job to do for themselves. PAT-OKC is designed to make it easier for users to interrogate whether a specific person is dangerous to them. It’s not designed to do any thinking instead of them; whether the word is “abuse,” “predator,” or anything else, there is no ethical alternative to using your own judgement.

Your critique of PAT-OKC’s “alcohol question” here boils down to, “People should always take the information they receive from computers as totally accurate, and thus the Predator Alert Tool, by potentially mislabeling some users as possibly dangerous, is useless.” (As an aside, your critique also implicitly creates a “predator/abuser versus not-a-predator/not-an-abuser” binary, which is just silly.) It is certainly fitting with your modus operandi of being popular and hating on convenient enemies (of which I am all too pleased to embody) to have people avoid critical thinking on their own, and encouraging them instead to take whatever information they receive from you as gospel, oh great answerer of Tumblr asks. That kind of paternalistic approach you’re taking is the same way oppressors work, even if the words they use vary. So, of the two of us, Cliff, it’s not me whose behavior in this interaction functionally results in people being less empowered.

Of course, this isn’t the first time I’ve made these points, but you don’t see Cliff linking to any of those posts. Consider reading a post on my blog making that point in a different way. And keep reading Pervocracy’s blog for more posts that selectively ignore mine, of course.

With regard to the Predator Alert Tool for FetLife, you apparently think that the “jokes and grudges” are a problem and lead to the tool being less useful, when in fact the opposite has proven to be true. I’ve written about this in such great length that, since you clearly fancy yourself familiar enough with the Predator Alert Tools to judge their effectiveness from on high, the simplest reason I can imagine that you’d fail to notice the many times we’ve addressed why “spam” and even “revenge” is actually a good thing to include in these databases is to purposefully malign the tools. In fact, even one of your buddy-buddy activist blogger fellow petty cowards, Thomas Millar cogently addressed this very derail you’re making:

You might expect that people would spam the database to make it useless.  There are many obvious griefing entries, just junk filled in with silly descriptions.  But so what? In fact, sometimes, the patterns of those entries tell a story themselves.  Someone named a British kinkster, and the response over the next two days was a flood of obvious griefer traffic, many of the reports made by people who identified themselves and were in fact friends of the guy identified as having violated consent.  This is the community response to survivors’ stories, captured in real time, the support for the accused and pressure to shut down disclosure.  That swarm had one other nugget in it, though: another report that the accused had violated someone’s consent. 

Yet another post detailing at even more length why the Predator Alert Tool databases I maintain have a “no-deletions” policy, even for “spam” and other greifer content, is PAT-Facebook co-creator unquietpirate’s explanation, which is worth reading in its entirety, but can be summarized as:

TL:DR: Even if random griefers do try to spam the system, that probably won’t affect your experience much unless you’re friends with someone famous. If it does start happening from inside your social network, then that still tells you something useful: It tells you that some of your friends don’t take rape or survivors’ needs seriously — which might be an even better indication that they’re not safe people than someone filing a report on them. And, if you’re clever, it can also help you figure out who.

So, again, given that we’ve already addressed every single one of your utterly stupid critiques numerous times, in numerous places, in numerous ways, why is it that despite your self-professed knowledge about these tools that you never link to those responses, or even acknowledge that they exist? Could it be that you behave in this pathetically immature, gross, and functionally rape-culture-supporting way because it’s just as socially rewarding for pop social justice, activist blogger hacks like you to intentionally malign these tools as it is for MRAs who scream about “false accusations”? That’s certainly rather fucking telling.

Each of the Predator Alert Tools are designed not only to integrate with the technology of the specific social network on which they’re deployed, but to powerfully impact the social network’s culture, the psyche of its users, as well. That means each tool is designed slightly differently. But, at their core, none of them do much that’s remarkably new.

Rather, each Predator Alert Tool focuses on scaling the tried-and-true self-protective mechanisms of vulnerable people:

You know what else women do in the physical world? We warn each other if we see our friends flirting with the douch at the party. Maybe we’re vague about it, maybe we only warn the women we already know[,] not the new girl he’s talking to, but this [Predator Alert Tool] app is cool specifically because it mirrors existing behavior.

And it scales it.

And that scares the shit out of the douch bags we’ve been talking about all along.

So, there’s that. If you’re still alive tomorrow, Cliff, try coming up with a critique that we haven’t already addressed. I’d genuinely be interested in your constructive feedback about the tools, but I’m not going to be nice to you when you purposefully make ad-hominem attacks, encourage logical fallacies, decontextualize my words, actions, and intents on your platform to hoard your own social capital, selectively ignore my posts, and generally try shaming me into behaving the way you’d like to see me behave with tone arguments. That’s just cyberbullying, and I’m going to keep telling anyone who does that to me to kill themselves, because doing so is actually appropriate and helpful in defeating the social censorship and misinformation you’re evidently hell-bent on reinforcing.

  1. concernedbystander reblogged this from maymay and added:
    MayMay, by asking people to “kill themselves” is triggering innocent people who might even be his allies. He should stop...
  2. idlnmclean reblogged this from maymay
  3. ardillo008 reblogged this from pervocracy
  4. fillingthespaces reblogged this from maymay and added:
    i’m not reblogging all of maymay’s response because, frankly, it’s gross. i just feel the need to express my distress at...
  5. askafemdom reblogged this from jadelyn
  6. underhuntressmoon reblogged this from jadelyn and added:
    MayMay claims to be a radfem. MayMay is in fact an abusive insensitive shitbag.
  7. jadelyn reblogged this from lucypaw and added:
    …is anyone else seeing this as a textbook example of how someone who’s fluent in the language of anti-oppression work...
  8. maymay reblogged this from pervocracy and added:
    HOLY SHIT. A direct response. I guess there’s always a first time. :) More evidence being forceful with these people,...
  9. lucypaw reblogged this from fillingthespaces and added:
    MayMay is a creep and an arsehole. This is yet another example of how.
  10. sparklebutch reblogged this from pervocracy
  11. nogodsonequeen reblogged this from pervocracy
  12. pervocracy reblogged this from maymay and added:
    Hoo boy did MayMay have a response to this. Skim down to the bottom after the cute guinea pig if you don’t want to read...
  13. spiralred reblogged this from maymay
  14. shoutyourporpoise reblogged this from pervocracy